Trust and Forgiveness After Divorce

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Emily and Kevin discuss the issues of trusting again after divorce. Learn tips on how to forgive those that have hurt you.

October 2, 2013

Transcription:

Emily: Divorce Talk Radio does not give therapeutic advice. The topics discussed are for informational purposes only. If you are in need of therapy or counseling, please consult a licensed professional in your own state.

 

Welcome to Moving Forward. I am your host, Emily McGrath, and Kevin McCarthy, my cohost, is with me here tonight. Welcome, Kevin.

 

Kevin: And a good Sunday evening to you, Emily.

 

Emily: Yes, absolutely. Thank you to our listeners for joining us.

 

Kevin: Yes.

 

Emily: We are going to be talking about trust after divorce or during the divorce.

 

Kevin: Oh, boy, now that’s a topic.

 

Emily: Right? Especially if you have been cheated on or your trust has been tested in the past, whether it be, like I said, being cheated on or just in general trust.

 

Kevin: Boy, where do we start? Because, of course, many divorces begin because of lack of trust.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Somebody’s broken a trust.

 

Emily: Right. That’s a good question. It’s hard to know where to start, because you were in the depths of pain and divorce and all that good stuff.

 

Kevin: Especially when the divorce is filed, you might wonder, “Well, why did this happen? How did this happen? Why did he and she, she and he,” whatever the case is. Then you find out that that person broke their trust with you.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: You went for the vows. You said, yeah, death do you part.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Then you find out this person cheated you. Now, that’s one of them. Finances could be another way you didn’t trust a person.

 

Emily: True.

 

Kevin: There are many topics around trust.

 

Emily: True, right. I think it’s not a good idea to get in what happened, like why did this happen because you’re never going to get those answers. You can do that all you want, but you’re going to go on a cycle and be nonstop and not be able to get out of that mindset.

 

Kevin: Could go in circles.

 

Emily: Yes. As you know, being stuck and going into a cycle like that is just destroying to you, your health, and everything around you. You become destructive almost.

 

Kevin: Oh, you absolutely do.

 

Emily: For me, I was cheated on. My former spouse cheated on me with one of our good friends. It was very close to home. I had major trust issues after that because who could I trust? Which of my friends could I trust? Then, trusting another man again, to me, that was not something that was going to happen any time soon.

 

Kevin: That must’ve been shocking, because you go to your friends because they’re your friends.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: You want them to help you.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Then, in your case, you found out that he was cheating on you with one of your friends!

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: So, the trust was broken between your husband at the time, and now even your friend. Sad case.

 

Emily: Right. This was a couple that we had become close with, so I actually had someone I could talk to — her husband at the time.

 

Kevin: Her future ex, her husband, right.

 

Emily: Actually, before I even knew anything was going on, she was my only friend that I could talk to according to my former spouse. I was confiding in someone who was not loyal to me, and I did not know that. So, I was sharing very personal things with her about our marriage, because at that time it was starting to dissolve.

 

You’re very vulnerable when you’re going through that, and you don’t know which way is up. When you’re confiding in someone, you need them to be true and honest and not share those things with your spouse. I actually found out that everything that I said did get back to him. I was not willing to trust very easily. I had to gain trust very, very . . . it was hard for me.

 

Kevin: It was a difficult task . . .

 

Emily: Yeah, it was very difficult.

 

Kevin: . . . to trust again. And, it was your friend so here you are, well, you knew there was something wrong with your marriage, yet she was the main reason why.

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: Of course, your husband at the time, too, was no saint.

 

Emily: Right. I guess the other thing is when something like that happens and there is mistrust and an affair, it always helps if people come out and actually admit that they have had this affair. Yes, they never did that. They actually said nothing happened. Even to this day, they are still together but they still say it isn’t going on.

 

Kevin: Oh boy. Well, that’s . . .

 

Emily: For me, it was very hard to gain trust from anyone. I didn’t know who I could trust, so, yeah. I don’t know if you had any situations like that, but it’s very hard to really confide in anyone and really put those walls down because I put those walls up, and they were up hard. You would have . . .

 

Kevin: Really high up there.

 

Emily: Oh, my goodness, yes. Even trying to get into a new relationship, how do you do that? How do you trust again? For me, I need to do it the hard way. I had to go through it and know in my heart that the person that I was dating wouldn’t do that to me.

 

The person that I am still in a relationship with and that was like the big relationship after the divorce, I met him through a friend. It was a blind date. Imagine that. He lived in Aurora. It was like an hour and a half away, so it’s not like we could see each other every day.

 

That was a test of my trusting and truly of him as well, because he had gotten out of a bad relationship as well. We both had those trust issues. That was a learning experience for me. That’s how I learned to trust again was being in a relationship with someone who is a good person. Even though I did have anxiety around it, it helped, because even if he didn’t answer and I did freak out, I did, I will be honest, I freaked out about it.

 

Kevin: I would.

 

Emily: But, I learned that he is a good person and that he would not do that to me ever. We have a pact that neither of us believe in cheating on each other and the person that you’re with, and if that happens it’s just done. If we find out the other person cheated on the other one, we’re just done.

 

Kevin: And then everybody should just part ways at that point.

 

Emily: Yes, yes.

 

Kevin: I guess, well, there might be many ways, but one way, Emily, to trust someone is, again, you have to put out your hand . . .

 

Emily: You do.

 

Kevin: . . . put out your heart . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . then track the person. When I say “track the person”,  I’m saying whenever you go on dates, whenever you have phone calls . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . where there’s no suspicion, then and only then can you really start to trust someone . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . or you maybe let down your guard a little bit more, which is what you’re doing with your current boyfriend.

 

Emily: Right, exactly. That is my suggestion is to really work on your wall or your guard that you have up. Trying to find a good person is sometimes hard, but I truly believe if you are ready, that person will come to you.

 

Kevin: Well, you have to give that chance.

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: If you want to have that feeling of love again . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . and the possible marriage again . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . or maybe just going out dating. You still have to let down and trust someone and give it a shot.

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: You can still have that wall up, but, again, maybe you want to take it down a couple of notches depending on who you’re dating and eventually maybe it turns into something good.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: It is difficult. Sometimes I find it difficult. This person here, this one gal, she seems great, but I don’t know if I can trust her. There’s a little red flag that pops up. Or, gee, you’re crushed once.

 

Emily: Right, right.

 

Kevin: But, like you, we both want to get back up on that horse again.

 

Emily: Right. And another good way to really know if it’s a good fit or a good person is to use your true and honest friends. Because remember when you came over with our other friend.

 

Kevin: Yes, yes.

 

Emily: I think we talked about that on one of the other podcasts.

 

Kevin: One of the programs, yes.

 

Emily: You know, you have this person in your house and you don’t know who they are. You’re like, “Okay, seriously, what is going on?”

 

Kevin: And we felt you really let down your trust and you guard. That’s what it was.

 

Emily: And I was really shocked about that because that was really early on. That was before I met who I’m with now.

 

Kevin: Right.

 

Emily: You have to be careful, because you don’t want to put your guard down too quickly and be naive. I kind of think I was naive when I was dating because it had been 15 years since I had dated. It’s a lot different than dating 15 years ago.

 

Kevin: 15 years ago, yeah.

 

Emily: I was in a different mindset, too. You really have to be careful about that, too.

 

Kevin: And being younger, you could afford to make a mistake here or there. But, the older we get . . .

 

Emily: Right, oh my gosh.

 

Kevin: . . . time runs out here where we can’t make too many mistakes any more here.

 

Emily: Right, exactly. Well, and you don’t know who the people are. There’s another thing for trusting. It’s like, okay, if you’re going to date online, who is this person really? Are you going to trust that these are good people? What are they putting up there? Is it truth?

 

Kevin: But that only comes after getting to know that person.

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: Even then, there was . . . some of my friends that are girls, when they dated a guy, everything was fine for the first few dates.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Then, all of a sudden the truth starts to come out on something.

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

Kevin: He doesn’t work here. He works there.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: He is seeing two other girls, not just her as he told her. Now, that person, which would be a me or a you . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . now then the wall starts to go back up again. Here we’d let it down. Now, it’s going back up again.

 

Emily: Right. And if you think about it, what does that do to your body and your mind? It’s very confusing to yourself. Don’t go up and down with your guard. I think it’s best to keep your guard up to a point but still be able to let people in and really get to know other people so then you can learn to trust again. Because it is possible, it is possible to have a good relationship again after a divorce.

 

Kevin: We know many people . . .

 

Emily: Yes, yes.

 

Kevin: . . . that are successful dating. Of course, dating, you could date a person for six months and it falls apart for whatever reason. But, it could fall apart just on general circumstances.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Maybe I didn’t like that person after all like I may have thought. Or, the trust factor’s still there, but it’s not as high as it was because you did not get taken advantage of or have been lied to.

 

Emily: Exactly. Right. I think you can feel that out on the first couple of dates with someone because, really, you can’t hide that for that long.

 

Kevin: A liar eventually is going to get caught.

 

Emily: Yes, especially if they’re narcissistic. There are signs that you can pick up. Like, okay, is that story not the same as I heard it last time, or whatever the instance is. You can tell. You can tell. There are ways to tell.

 

Kevin: Sure there are. Well, Emily, I guess with trust does come forgiveness eventually. Maybe you can embellish that or tell us a little bit about the forgiveness side, yaybe how we could forgive someone after they broke their trust with us.

 

Emily: Absolutely. Forgiveness is something that is necessary in order for your healing process. One of the tools that I’ve learned, and I’ve talked about this before, is the whole Pono Pono forgiveness prayer. It’s a Hawaiian forgiveness prayer that Dr. Hew Len developed.

 

You work on yourself for someone else to receive the healing. You take 100 percent of the responsibility and you pray to God, pretty much, or a higher being, or whatever you believe. There are four sentences, and you can make it as specific or as general as you want. You think about the person who you’re trying to help and heal. It helps to heal yourself at the same time. It is, “I’m sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you, I love you.”

 

Kevin: So, this would be something that a person would be able to write down, maybe keep it with them on a little index card or near a computer.

 

Emily: Right, right. I’m constantly doing this forgiveness prayer. You’re cleansing yourself, then that works for the person. Let’s say someone had hurt you by telling you a lie or your trust has been extinguished. There’s no trust there between you and this person. So, you’re thinking of this person and the trust, and like say, “I’m sorry for not trusting you. Please forgive me for being untrustworthy. Thank you for giving me life, or being able to trust, or whatever the situation is. I love you,” and you just keep doing it. It’s almost like a mantra.

 

Kevin: It’s an ongoing process.

 

Emily: It’s an ongoing process. This has really helped heal me and forgive my former spouse. I actually had forgiven him a long time ago. I believe that’s why I was able to find the person I’m in a relationship with. I believe that’s why we were able to really connect on that level and have a good thing right away. Because I wasn’t divorced very long when I found my boyfriend. So, I believe, and I didn’t know about this actual tool until, I want to say, a couple of years ago.

 

Kevin: I like this tool.

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: I know there are other ways to teach and learn about forgiveness.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: But, this tool I like, because it is just some simple words that are basic yet very effective and powerful.

 

Emily: It’s very easy. The words are easy, but the concept is hard. Because how hard is it to think and be grateful or say you’re sorry about someone that has hurt you. But truly, you’re not doing this towards that individual. You’re doing it towards a higher power and their higher self. So, it’s not truly them. But, you’re cleansing yourself in the process, so you feel better, you feel lighter. I have clients who have used this, and they swear by it.

 

Kevin: That is good. Tell us again. What is this called, this Hawaiian prayer?

 

Emily: It’s called the Ho’oponopono.

 

Kevin: Ho’oponopono.

 

Emily: Yes. It’s a Hawaiian forgiveness prayer.

 

Kevin: How do you spell it in case someone wants to do a Google search on it, let’s say?

 

Emily: Well, you can Google Dr. Hew Len or Joe Vitale. I’d have to write it out in order to be able to spell it.

 

Kevin: Okay.

 

Emily: But, it’s like H-O and then there’s an apostrophe and then I believe it’s O-P-O-N-O-P-O-N-O.

 

Kevin: Alright.

 

Emily: Yes. It’s amazing. You feel so much better, and you’re doing so much good for you and that other person. I’ve noticed a difference in my former spouse, like just in our exchanges with our son. It’s just huge.

 

Kevin: So, you were able to handle the situation better.

 

Emily: Easier, yes. Your energy is higher when you are in this mental state. Whatever you give off, you get back.

 

Kevin: So, this would even affect the person that you’re dating or that relationship then . . .

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: . . . because someone could still talk about their ex . . .

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: . . . and their old boyfriend or girlfriend. Who wants to hear that?

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: But, in this case now, this is helping you not only dealing with your ex in this case when you have to talk about your son, but this is also helping the person that you’re dating or someone that wants to see you that you’re not going to be bringing up the past too much.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: You’re just talking about the future with them, that person.

 

Emily: Exactly. It’s a wonderful tool. Also, just working on your mindset, like when you get negative thoughts coming in about the situation, about trusting, and just acknowledging those painful or negative thoughs. Because I don’t think we realize how negative we are and how negative we think until we notice it.

 

Kevin: I think that could be because, depending how hard you were hurt, how that trust that someone had with you, how did that person really stick it to you. In my case, Emily, I can tell you, the forgiveness part was very difficult for me.

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

Kevin: Many people have trouble with the forgiveness side.

 

Emily: Exactly, right.

 

Kevin: However, I’m much better with it. But, saying that, I know how to deal with it. I’ve forgiven her. But, I could never trust that person again.

 

Emily: That is one thing this would help with because I think in order to trust again, you need to forgive that person and let that go.

 

Kevin: Maybe not trust that person again, though.

 

Emily: Well, that’s still negative.

 

Kevin: Depending on what the relationship is. I understand that. I’m coming, I guess, from a little more of a common sense standpoint of sorts . . .

 

Emily: Yeah, okay.

 

Kevin: . . . and a human standpoint.

 

Emily: Sure.

 

Kevin: Or, sometimes, yeah, you could forgive that person but you don’t have to deal with that person any more.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: That’s the situation I’m in.

 

Emily: Sure.

 

Kevin: It’s like, I don’t want to deal with that person.

 

Emily: That’s a little different.

 

Kevin: I will never trust that person. However, I do understand about the forgiveness factor.

 

Emily: Right. Well, especially when you have to deal with that person because of a child, you have to trust that person that they’re going to . . .

 

Kevin: There you go.

 

Emily: . . .have the right decisions for the child when they’re not in your hands. It’s also a control thing with that situation. I actually had to give up a lot of control. I had a lot of control issues at the beginning, a lot, that I had to work on.

 

Kevin: Well, the divorce was new. The papers are being filed.

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

Kevin: There are still some of these court dates going on. It’s just a mess in general.

 

Emily: Well, the control came around my son because I wanted to know when and where he was at all times. That’s just not applicable. You can’t do that when you are divorced and there are two single homes. In my situation, there’s not a lot of communication, so you’ve just got to let it go. You can’t control that other person, and I think that’s . . .

 

Kevin: And that was your motherly instinct taking hold.

 

Emily: Yes. I think that’s a whole other show is control. I think that’s a whole other show.

 

Kevin: Another topic.

 

Emily: Yes. Because that’s a huge thing that people struggle with. I know I did on a big level.

 

Kevin: So what you’re saying is that sometimes the forgiveness factor, you also have to let that control down.

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: You have to give some of the control up.

 

Emily: You need to, otherwise you’re going to go crazy.

 

Kevin: And you’re not even helping yourself if that’s the case.

 

Emily: No. At that point you’re stuck. You’re stuck and it’s not a good place to be.

 

Kevin: I’m sure there are people we both know, and even our listeners, that some people are simply not going to change. They don’t even want to give it a chance.

 

Emily: Right, and that’s not a good place to be either. I can understand where they’re coming from because it is so new, but you need to be willing to change because nothing is the same. Nothing’s the same.

 

Kevin: No.

 

Emily: And that can also be another show.

 

Kevin: You could go in your closet and stay there, or you could try to make things happen.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Sometimes you have to give a little in to get a lot back later. That’s the forgiveness factor.

 

Emily: Exactly. In my relationship with my former spouse, I have given a lot, a lot. I don’t get a whole lot back, but that’s part of the way that it works. I’d rather put my child first before getting something back from my former spouse because that’s just how I am. I’m a mom and that’s how I work.

 

I’ve just learned to give that up. I do other things. If it’s time with my son that I have to give up, I do other things to keep me busy or go for a walk, or exercise. It’s just a whole mindset, and everything, I believe, is around your mindset and how you’re thinking about things.

 

Kevin: Since you’re the professional here, Emily, you’re the coach, so you would feel that even though the other person might not be as forgiving as you are, from your standpoint, you should still continue that forgiveness . . .

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: . . . or continue that Hawaiian prayer.

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: And even though you might not get the results back, at least you know you’re doing the right thing.

 

Emily: Exactly. I think even doing it blankly, like not having anyone associated with the forgiveness prayer, just saying, “I’m sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you,” and being sincere, I think that’s where . . .

 

Kevin: Sincerity, genuine, yes.

 

Emily: You need to be sincere. That’s still such an empowering prayer that it will still work.

 

Kevin: That’s where if you say it and think about it on a regular basis, it will get easier . . .

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: . . . and that forgiveness will start to show and come through.

 

Emily: Absolutely. When I first found out about this tool, this forgiveness prayer, I was thinking, “Okay I have to do this with someone that I don’t really care for. Are you crazy? What?”

 

Kevin: Right. That would be me. That’s me. What do you mean you want me to forgive?

 

Emily: But, as soon as you start using it, it’s almost like that melts away. Because you’re cleansing and you’re cleaning yourself of that whatever was that burden or that hurt you whether it be trust or someone lashed out at you. Whatever the case may be, that feeling melts away. It’s amazing. I would suggest it to anyone because your energy is just uplifting and nothing can bother you because you’re in a space that’s higher than what you’re used to. It’s almost like a high.

 

Kevin: So it’s rewarding it sounds like.

 

Emily: It’s very rewarding.

 

Kevin: You’re proof positive on this.

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: Plus, some of your accounts, too, have that same feedback.

 

Emily: Yes. My clients love it, absolutely love it. Yes.

 

Kevin: You know, thinking about it now, using that same Hawaiian prayer, yes, the show and everything built around this website is pertaining towards divorce, current posts, whatever the case is. But, this forgiveness factor can also be used in general such as maybe a friendship.

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: Maybe your neighbor.

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: Even then it could help you. Obviously, it can’t hurt you.

 

Emily: No, it can’t hurt you at all. It can only help and make you feel better. I actually was put into a situation that was not healthy. I’ve been doing this with the situation. I can tell you within the last couple of months it has really changed.

 

I can’t explain it because they’re all getting along. They used to not get along. It was three women. It was a very uncomfortable place to be, and you could literally cut the tension with a knife. It has to do with the past and forgiving and trusting again. So, I did this. I’ve been doing it. I am constantly doing this prayer in my mind. It’s one of those things that’s just a part of me. There’s a completely different feeling now. There’s no tension. It’s amazing.

 

Kevin: Well, Emily, I know, and I’ve seen this. I’m sure our mutual friends have, too, on how you have grown. I think with your coaching and with what you’ve been through, I can see how much happier you are, upbeat, positive.

 

Emily: Yes. It’s just natural, now it’s natural. It’s just who I am. I was working with one of my clients. We were working over her goals and what she wants. She was like, “I want to be like you.” Okay.

 

Kevin: That’s one of the best compliments I guess.

 

Emily: That’s wonderful. I’m like, “Thank you.” I told her if you do what I suggest and the homework I give you, then you will be there in no time. I’m very excited to see her progress. She’s been doing really well.

 

Kevin: Good.

 

Emily: This is one of the tools that I have given her to use. She just can’t believe what a change it has made in her life. Just four quick sentences.

 

Kevin: Yeah, that’s exactly it, some of the basics could be some more important factors of going through a divorce, even post divorce.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: I know in some cases, too, maybe a little bit in my case, other people are all different, it might be harder to forgive.

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: However, it can be done.

 

Emily: It can be done. I’ve done it. I have a number of clients that have done it. It’s hard to get used to, because you’re not used to thinking about someone in that fashion who has hurt you. Because this person that you’re divorcing was the love of your life at one point. Some of them have had children together. Very intimate relationships just torn apart. How do you recover from that?

 

This is an easy, well, I shouldn’t say easy, but in the long run it becomes easier. It’s an easy four sentences, I should put it that way, to help with the trust and the forgiveness. Because it is hard. It is difficult to come out of that and be joyful.

 

Kevin: And sometimes, too, the forgiveness might not start until after the divorce.

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: Maybe you just have to work through it yourself and say, “You know something, I’m tired of this. I’m tired of my life. I’m tired of just being angry and mad. Let me try this forgiveness part and see if it does work.”

 

Emily: Right. I will guarantee you’ll have a change in who you are. People will notice a change in the way you carry yourself, how you talk. You will just feel so much lighter. It’s just amazing. It’s just a wonderful tool. And you can carry it with you. You can do it whenever. I do it in the car. I do it everywhere.

 

Kevin: Just make it a habit, and it is one heck of a good habit.

 

Emily: Yes, absolutely. Well, Kevin, thank you so much for joining me on today’s show.

 

Kevin: Well, Emily, thank you for having me here. I always appreciate being a part of the Emily McGrath program here.

 

Emily: Well, I appreciate you being here. Thanks to our listeners. If you have any questions or you want to get in touch with me, my e-mail is e.mcgrath@freedomfromheartache.com. Or, you can see my website. It is freedomfromheartache.com. Thank you again.

 

Kevin: Good night.

Emily: Divorce Talk Radio does not give therapeutic advice. The topics discussed are for informational purposes only. If you are in need of therapy or counselling, please consult a licensed professional in your own state.

 

Welcome to Moving Forward. I am your host, Emily McGrath, and Kevin McCarthy, my cohost, is with me here tonight. Welcome, Kevin.

 

Kevin: And a good Sunday evening to you, Emily.

 

Emily: Yes, absolutely. Thank you to our listeners for joining us.

 

Kevin: Yes.

 

Emily: We are going to be talking about trust after divorce or during the divorce.

 

Kevin: Oh, boy, now that’s a topic.

 

Emily: Right? Especially if you have been cheated on or your trust has been tested in the past, whether it be, like I said, being cheated on or just in general trust.

 

Kevin: Boy, where do we start? Because, of course, many divorces begin because of lack of trust.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Somebody’s broken a trust.

 

Emily: Right. That’s a good question. It’s hard to know where to start, because you were in the depths of pain and divorce and all that good stuff.

 

Kevin: Especially when the divorce is filed, you might wonder, “Well, why did this happen? How did this happen? Why did he and she, she and he,” whatever the case is. Then you find out that that person broke their trust with you.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: You went for the vows. You said, yeah, death do you part.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Then you find out this person cheated you. Now, that’s one of them. Finances could be another way you didn’t trust a person.

 

Emily: True.

 

Kevin: There are many topics around trust.

 

Emily: True, right. I think it’s not a good idea to get in what happened, like why did this happen because you’re never going to get those answers. You can do that all you want, but you’re going to go on a cycle and be nonstop and not be able to get out of that mindset.

 

Kevin: Could go in circles.

 

Emily: Yes. As you know, being stuck and going into a cycle like that is just destroying to you, your health, and everything around you. You become destructive almost.

 

Kevin: Oh, you absolutely do.

 

Emily: For me, I was cheated on. My former spouse cheated on me with one of our good friends. It was very close to home. I had major trust issues after that because who could I trust? Which of my friends could I trust? Then, trusting another man again, to me, that was not something that was going to happen any time soon.

 

Kevin: That must’ve been shocking, because you go to your friends because they’re your friends.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: You want them to help you.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Then, in your case, you found out that he was cheating on you with one of your friends!

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: So, the trust was broken between your husband at the time, and now even your friend. Sad case.

 

Emily: Right. This was a couple that we had become close with, so I actually had someone I could talk to — her husband at the time.

 

Kevin: Her future ex, her husband, right.

 

Emily: Actually, before I even knew anything was going on, she was my only friend that I could talk to according to my former spouse. I was confiding in someone who was not loyal to me, and I did not know that. So, I was sharing very personal things with her about our marriage, because at that time it was starting to dissolve.

 

You’re very vulnerable when you’re going through that, and you don’t know which way is up. When you’re confiding in someone, you need them to be true and honest and not share those things with your spouse. I actually found out that everything that I said did get back to him. I was not willing to trust very easily. I had to gain trust very, very . . . it was hard for me.

 

Kevin: It was a difficult task . . .

 

Emily: Yeah, it was very difficult.

 

Kevin: . . . to trust again. And, it was your friend so here you are, well, you knew there was something wrong with your marriage, yet she was the main reason why.

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: Of course, your husband at the time, too, was no saint.

 

Emily: Right. I guess the other thing is when something like that happens and there is mistrust and an affair, it always helps if people come out and actually admit that they have had this affair. Yes, they never did that. They actually said nothing happened. Even to this day, they are still together but they still say it isn’t going on.

 

Kevin: Oh boy. Well, that’s . . .

 

Emily: For me, it was very hard to gain trust from anyone. I didn’t know who I could trust, so, yeah. I don’t know if you had any situations like that, but it’s very hard to really confide in anyone and really put those walls down because I put those walls up, and they were up hard. You would have . . .

 

Kevin: Really high up there.

 

Emily: Oh, my goodness, yes. Even trying to get into a new relationship, how do you do that? How do you trust again? For me, I need to do it the hard way. I had to go through it and know in my heart that the person that I was dating wouldn’t do that to me.

 

The person that I am still in a relationship with and that was like the big relationship after the divorce, I met him through a friend. It was a blind date. Imagine that. He lived in Aurora. It was like an hour and a half away, so it’s not like we could see each other every day.

 

That was a test of my trusting and truly of him as well, because he had gotten out of a bad relationship as well. We both had those trust issues. That was a learning experience for me. That’s how I learned to trust again was being in a relationship with someone who is a good person. Even though I did have anxiety around it, it helped, because even if he didn’t answer and I did freak out, I did, I will be honest, I freaked out about it.

 

Kevin: I would.

 

Emily: But, I learned that he is a good person and that he would not do that to me ever. We have a pact that neither of us believe in cheating on each other and the person that you’re with, and if that happens it’s just done. If we find out the other person cheated on the other one, we’re just done.

 

Kevin: And then everybody should just part ways at that point.

 

Emily: Yes, yes.

 

Kevin: I guess, well, there might be many ways, but one way, Emily, to trust someone is, again, you have to put out your hand . . .

 

Emily: You do.

 

Kevin: . . . put out your heart . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . then track the person. When I say “track the person”,  I’m saying whenever you go on dates, whenever you have phone calls . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . where there’s no suspicion, then and only then can you really start to trust someone . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . or you maybe let down your guard a little bit more, which is what you’re doing with your current boyfriend.

 

Emily: Right, exactly. That is my suggestion is to really work on your wall or your guard that you have up. Trying to find a good person is sometimes hard, but I truly believe if you are ready, that person will come to you.

 

Kevin: Well, you have to give that chance.

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: If you want to have that feeling of love again . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . and the possible marriage again . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . or maybe just going out dating. You still have to let down and trust someone and give it a shot.

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: You can still have that wall up, but, again, maybe you want to take it down a couple of notches depending on who you’re dating and eventually maybe it turns into something good.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: It is difficult. Sometimes I find it difficult. This person here, this one gal, she seems great, but I don’t know if I can trust her. There’s a little red flag that pops up. Or, gee, you’re crushed once.

 

Emily: Right, right.

 

Kevin: But, like you, we both want to get back up on that horse again.

 

Emily: Right. And another good way to really know if it’s a good fit or a good person is to use your true and honest friends. Because remember when you came over with our other friend.

 

Kevin: Yes, yes.

 

Emily: I think we talked about that on one of the other podcasts.

 

Kevin: One of the programs, yes.

 

Emily: You know, you have this person in your house and you don’t know who they are. You’re like, “Okay, seriously, what is going on?”

 

Kevin: And we felt you really let down your trust and you guard. That’s what it was.

 

Emily: And I was really shocked about that because that was really early on. That was before I met who I’m with now.

 

Kevin: Right.

 

Emily: You have to be careful, because you don’t want to put your guard down too quickly and be naive. I kind of think I was naive when I was dating because it had been 15 years since I had dated. It’s a lot different than dating 15 years ago.

 

Kevin: 15 years ago, yeah.

 

Emily: I was in a different mindset, too. You really have to be careful about that, too.

 

Kevin: And being younger, you could afford to make a mistake here or there. But, the older we get . . .

 

Emily: Right, oh my gosh.

 

Kevin: . . . time runs out here where we can’t make too many mistakes any more here.

 

Emily: Right, exactly. Well, and you don’t know who the people are. There’s another thing for trusting. It’s like, okay, if you’re going to date online, who is this person really? Are you going to trust that these are good people? What are they putting up there? Is it truth?

 

Kevin: But that only comes after getting to know that person.

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: Even then, there was . . . some of my friends that are girls, when they dated a guy, everything was fine for the first few dates.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Then, all of a sudden the truth starts to come out on something.

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

Kevin: He doesn’t work here. He works there.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: He is seeing two other girls, not just her as he told her. Now, that person, which would be a me or a you . . .

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: . . . now then the wall starts to go back up again. Here we’d let it down. Now, it’s going back up again.

 

Emily: Right. And if you think about it, what does that do to your body and your mind? It’s very confusing to yourself. Don’t go up and down with your guard. I think it’s best to keep your guard up to a point but still be able to let people in and really get to know other people so then you can learn to trust again. Because it is possible, it is possible to have a good relationship again after a divorce.

 

Kevin: We know many people . . .

 

Emily: Yes, yes.

 

Kevin: . . . that are successful dating. Of course, dating, you could date a person for six months and it falls apart for whatever reason. But, it could fall apart just on general circumstances.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Maybe I didn’t like that person after all like I may have thought. Or, the trust factor’s still there, but it’s not as high as it was because you did not get taken advantage of or have been lied to.

 

Emily: Exactly. Right. I think you can feel that out on the first couple of dates with someone because, really, you can’t hide that for that long.

 

Kevin: A liar eventually is going to get caught.

 

Emily: Yes, especially if they’re narcissistic. There are signs that you can pick up. Like, okay, is that story not the same as I heard it last time, or whatever the instance is. You can tell. You can tell. There are ways to tell.

 

Kevin: Sure there are. Well, Emily, I guess with trust does come forgiveness eventually. Maybe you can embellish that or tell us a little bit about the forgiveness side, yaybe how we could forgive someone after they broke their trust with us.

 

Emily: Absolutely. Forgiveness is something that is necessary in order for your healing process. One of the tools that I’ve learned, and I’ve talked about this before, is the whole Pono Pono forgiveness prayer. It’s a Hawaiian forgiveness prayer that Dr. Hew Len developed.

 

You work on yourself for someone else to receive the healing. You take 100 percent of the responsibility and you pray to God, pretty much, or a higher being, or whatever you believe. There are four sentences, and you can make it as specific or as general as you want. You think about the person who you’re trying to help and heal. It helps to heal yourself at the same time. It is, “I’m sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you, I love you.”

 

Kevin: So, this would be something that a person would be able to write down, maybe keep it with them on a little index card or near a computer.

 

Emily: Right, right. I’m constantly doing this forgiveness prayer. You’re cleansing yourself, then that works for the person. Let’s say someone had hurt you by telling you a lie or your trust has been extinguished. There’s no trust there between you and this person. So, you’re thinking of this person and the trust, and like say, “I’m sorry for not trusting you. Please forgive me for being untrustworthy. Thank you for giving me life, or being able to trust, or whatever the situation is. I love you,” and you just keep doing it. It’s almost like a mantra.

 

Kevin: It’s an ongoing process.

 

Emily: It’s an ongoing process. This has really helped heal me and forgive my former spouse. I actually had forgiven him a long time ago. I believe that’s why I was able to find the person I’m in a relationship with. I believe that’s why we were able to really connect on that level and have a good thing right away. Because I wasn’t divorced very long when I found my boyfriend. So, I believe, and I didn’t know about this actual tool until, I want to say, a couple of years ago.

 

Kevin: I like this tool.

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: I know there are other ways to teach and learn about forgiveness.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: But, this tool I like, because it is just some simple words that are basic yet very effective and powerful.

 

Emily: It’s very easy. The words are easy, but the concept is hard. Because how hard is it to think and be grateful or say you’re sorry about someone that has hurt you. But truly, you’re not doing this towards that individual. You’re doing it towards a higher power and their higher self. So, it’s not truly them. But, you’re cleansing yourself in the process, so you feel better, you feel lighter. I have clients who have used this, and they swear by it.

 

Kevin: That is good. Tell us again. What is this called, this Hawaiian prayer?

 

Emily: It’s called the Ho’oponopono.

 

Kevin: Ho’oponopono.

 

Emily: Yes. It’s a Hawaiian forgiveness prayer.

 

Kevin: How do you spell it in case someone wants to do a Google search on it, let’s say?

 

Emily: Well, you can Google Dr. Hew Len or Joe Vitale. I’d have to write it out in order to be able to spell it.

 

Kevin: Okay.

 

Emily: But, it’s like H-O and then there’s an apostrophe and then I believe it’s O-P-O-N-O-P-O-N-O.

 

Kevin: Alright.

 

Emily: Yes. It’s amazing. You feel so much better, and you’re doing so much good for you and that other person. I’ve noticed a difference in my former spouse, like just in our exchanges with our son. It’s just huge.

 

Kevin: So, you were able to handle the situation better.

 

Emily: Easier, yes. Your energy is higher when you are in this mental state. Whatever you give off, you get back.

 

Kevin: So, this would even affect the person that you’re dating or that relationship then . . .

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: . . . because someone could still talk about their ex . . .

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: . . . and their old boyfriend or girlfriend. Who wants to hear that?

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: But, in this case now, this is helping you not only dealing with your ex in this case when you have to talk about your son, but this is also helping the person that you’re dating or someone that wants to see you that you’re not going to be bringing up the past too much.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: You’re just talking about the future with them, that person.

 

Emily: Exactly. It’s a wonderful tool. Also, just working on your mindset, like when you get negative thoughts coming in about the situation, about trusting, and just acknowledging those painful or negative thoughs. Because I don’t think we realize how negative we are and how negative we think until we notice it.

 

Kevin: I think that could be because, depending how hard you were hurt, how that trust that someone had with you, how did that person really stick it to you. In my case, Emily, I can tell you, the forgiveness part was very difficult for me.

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

Kevin: Many people have trouble with the forgiveness side.

 

Emily: Exactly, right.

 

Kevin: However, I’m much better with it. But, saying that, I know how to deal with it. I’ve forgiven her. But, I could never trust that person again.

 

Emily: That is one thing this would help with because I think in order to trust again, you need to forgive that person and let that go.

 

Kevin: Maybe not trust that person again, though.

 

Emily: Well, that’s still negative.

 

Kevin: Depending on what the relationship is. I understand that. I’m coming, I guess, from a little more of a common sense standpoint of sorts . . .

 

Emily: Yeah, okay.

 

Kevin: . . . and a human standpoint.

 

Emily: Sure.

 

Kevin: Or, sometimes, yeah, you could forgive that person but you don’t have to deal with that person any more.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: That’s the situation I’m in.

 

Emily: Sure.

 

Kevin: It’s like, I don’t want to deal with that person.

 

Emily: That’s a little different.

 

Kevin: I will never trust that person. However, I do understand about the forgiveness factor.

 

Emily: Right. Well, especially when you have to deal with that person because of a child, you have to trust that person that they’re going to . . .

 

Kevin: There you go.

 

Emily: . . .have the right decisions for the child when they’re not in your hands. It’s also a control thing with that situation. I actually had to give up a lot of control. I had a lot of control issues at the beginning, a lot, that I had to work on.

 

Kevin: Well, the divorce was new. The papers are being filed.

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

Kevin: There are still some of these court dates going on. It’s just a mess in general.

 

Emily: Well, the control came around my son because I wanted to know when and where he was at all times. That’s just not applicable. You can’t do that when you are divorced and there are two single homes. In my situation, there’s not a lot of communication, so you’ve just got to let it go. You can’t control that other person, and I think that’s . . .

 

Kevin: And that was your motherly instinct taking hold.

 

Emily: Yes. I think that’s a whole other show is control. I think that’s a whole other show.

 

Kevin: Another topic.

 

Emily: Yes. Because that’s a huge thing that people struggle with. I know I did on a big level.

 

Kevin: So what you’re saying is that sometimes the forgiveness factor, you also have to let that control down.

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: You have to give some of the control up.

 

Emily: You need to, otherwise you’re going to go crazy.

 

Kevin: And you’re not even helping yourself if that’s the case.

 

Emily: No. At that point you’re stuck. You’re stuck and it’s not a good place to be.

 

Kevin: I’m sure there are people we both know, and even our listeners, that some people are simply not going to change. They don’t even want to give it a chance.

 

Emily: Right, and that’s not a good place to be either. I can understand where they’re coming from because it is so new, but you need to be willing to change because nothing is the same. Nothing’s the same.

 

Kevin: No.

 

Emily: And that can also be another show.

 

Kevin: You could go in your closet and stay there, or you could try to make things happen.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: Sometimes you have to give a little in to get a lot back later. That’s the forgiveness factor.

 

Emily: Exactly. In my relationship with my former spouse, I have given a lot, a lot. I don’t get a whole lot back, but that’s part of the way that it works. I’d rather put my child first before getting something back from my former spouse because that’s just how I am. I’m a mom and that’s how I work.

 

I’ve just learned to give that up. I do other things. If it’s time with my son that I have to give up, I do other things to keep me busy or go for a walk, or exercise. It’s just a whole mindset, and everything, I believe, is around your mindset and how you’re thinking about things.

 

Kevin: Since you’re the professional here, Emily, you’re the coach, so you would feel that even though the other person might not be as forgiving as you are, from your standpoint, you should still continue that forgiveness . . .

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: . . . or continue that Hawaiian prayer.

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: And even though you might not get the results back, at least you know you’re doing the right thing.

 

Emily: Exactly. I think even doing it blankly, like not having anyone associated with the forgiveness prayer, just saying, “I’m sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you,” and being sincere, I think that’s where . . .

 

Kevin: Sincerity, genuine, yes.

 

Emily: You need to be sincere. That’s still such an empowering prayer that it will still work.

 

Kevin: That’s where if you say it and think about it on a regular basis, it will get easier . . .

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: . . . and that forgiveness will start to show and come through.

 

Emily: Absolutely. When I first found out about this tool, this forgiveness prayer, I was thinking, “Okay I have to do this with someone that I don’t really care for. Are you crazy? What?”

 

Kevin: Right. That would be me. That’s me. What do you mean you want me to forgive?

 

Emily: But, as soon as you start using it, it’s almost like that melts away. Because you’re cleansing and you’re cleaning yourself of that whatever was that burden or that hurt you whether it be trust or someone lashed out at you. Whatever the case may be, that feeling melts away. It’s amazing. I would suggest it to anyone because your energy is just uplifting and nothing can bother you because you’re in a space that’s higher than what you’re used to. It’s almost like a high.

 

Kevin: So it’s rewarding it sounds like.

 

Emily: It’s very rewarding.

 

Kevin: You’re proof positive on this.

 

Emily: Yes.

 

Kevin: Plus, some of your accounts, too, have that same feedback.

 

Emily: Yes. My clients love it, absolutely love it. Yes.

 

Kevin: You know, thinking about it now, using that same Hawaiian prayer, yes, the show and everything built around this website is pertaining towards divorce, current posts, whatever the case is. But, this forgiveness factor can also be used in general such as maybe a friendship.

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: Maybe your neighbor.

 

Emily: Absolutely.

 

Kevin: Even then it could help you. Obviously, it can’t hurt you.

 

Emily: No, it can’t hurt you at all. It can only help and make you feel better. I actually was put into a situation that was not healthy. I’ve been doing this with the situation. I can tell you within the last couple of months it has really changed.

 

I can’t explain it because they’re all getting along. They used to not get along. It was three women. It was a very uncomfortable place to be, and you could literally cut the tension with a knife. It has to do with the past and forgiving and trusting again. So, I did this. I’ve been doing it. I am constantly doing this prayer in my mind. It’s one of those things that’s just a part of me. There’s a completely different feeling now. There’s no tension. It’s amazing.

 

Kevin: Well, Emily, I know, and I’ve seen this. I’m sure our mutual friends have, too, on how you have grown. I think with your coaching and with what you’ve been through, I can see how much happier you are, upbeat, positive.

 

Emily: Yes. It’s just natural, now it’s natural. It’s just who I am. I was working with one of my clients. We were working over her goals and what she wants. She was like, “I want to be like you.” Okay.

 

Kevin: That’s one of the best compliments I guess.

 

Emily: That’s wonderful. I’m like, “Thank you.” I told her if you do what I suggest and the homework I give you, then you will be there in no time. I’m very excited to see her progress. She’s been doing really well.

 

Kevin: Good.

 

Emily: This is one of the tools that I have given her to use. She just can’t believe what a change it has made in her life. Just four quick sentences.

 

Kevin: Yeah, that’s exactly it, some of the basics could be some more important factors of going through a divorce, even post divorce.

 

Emily: Right.

 

Kevin: I know in some cases, too, maybe a little bit in my case, other people are all different, it might be harder to forgive.

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: However, it can be done.

 

Emily: It can be done. I’ve done it. I have a number of clients that have done it. It’s hard to get used to, because you’re not used to thinking about someone in that fashion who has hurt you. Because this person that you’re divorcing was the love of your life at one point. Some of them have had children together. Very intimate relationships just torn apart. How do you recover from that?

 

This is an easy, well, I shouldn’t say easy, but in the long run it becomes easier. It’s an easy four sentences, I should put it that way, to help with the trust and the forgiveness. Because it is hard. It is difficult to come out of that and be joyful.

 

Kevin: And sometimes, too, the forgiveness might not start until after the divorce.

 

Emily: Exactly.

 

Kevin: Maybe you just have to work through it yourself and say, “You know something, I’m tired of this. I’m tired of my life. I’m tired of just being angry and mad. Let me try this forgiveness part and see if it does work.”

 

Emily: Right. I will guarantee you’ll have a change in who you are. People will notice a change in the way you carry yourself, how you talk. You will just feel so much lighter. It’s just amazing. It’s just a wonderful tool. And you can carry it with you. You can do it whenever. I do it in the car. I do it everywhere.

 

Kevin: Just make it a habit, and it is one heck of a good habit.

 

Emily: Yes, absolutely. Well, Kevin, thank you so much for joining me on today’s show.

 

Kevin: Well, Emily, thank you for having me here. I always appreciate being a part of the Emily McGrath program here.

 

Emily: Well, I appreciate you being here. Thanks to our listeners. If you have any questions or you want to get in touch with me, my e-mail is e.mcgrath@freedomfromheartache.com. Or, you can see my website. It is freedomfromheartache.com. Thank you again.

 

Kevin: Good night.

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